[cabfpub] FW: Pre-Ballot 164 - Certificate Serial Number Entropy
Ben Wilson
ben.wilson at digicert.com
Mon Apr 18 22:45:06 UTC 2016
On the cablint report for the 20 bits of entropy, https://crt.sh/?cablint=38, there are 20 certificates that were listed. If this changes to 64 bits, how many more certificates will be on the list?
From: public-bounces at cabforum.org [mailto:public-bounces at cabforum.org] On Behalf Of Ben Wilson
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 10:25 AM
To: CABFPub <public at cabforum.org>
Subject: [cabfpub] FW: Pre-Ballot 164 - Certificate Serial Number Entropy
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From: Kane York [mailto:kanepyork at gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 10:23 AM
To: Ben Wilson <ben.wilson at digicert.com <mailto:ben.wilson at digicert.com> >; Erwann Abalea <Erwann.Abalea at docusign.com <mailto:Erwann.Abalea at docusign.com> >
Cc: questions at cabforum.org <mailto:questions at cabforum.org>
Subject: Re: [cabfpub] Pre-Ballot 164 - Certificate Serial Number Entropy
On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 7:52 AM Ben Wilson <ben.wilson at digicert.com <mailto:ben.wilson at digicert.com> > wrote:
I didn’t think it was that simple. For instance, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Password_strength
From: Erwann Abalea [mailto:Erwann.Abalea at docusign.com <mailto:Erwann.Abalea at docusign.com> ]
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 8:44 AM
To: Ben Wilson <ben.wilson at digicert.com <mailto:ben.wilson at digicert.com> >
Cc: CABFPub <public at cabforum.org <mailto:public at cabforum.org> >
Subject: Re: [cabfpub] Pre-Ballot 164 - Certificate Serial Number Entropy
Bonjour,
20 bits of entropy is the same as 20 bits unpredictable bits.
Whence, 64 bits of entropy is a higher requirement than 20 bits of entropy.
Cordialement,
Erwann Abalea
No, it definitely is that simple.
I think the confusion here is the definition of "hex characters".
> Our CA issues certificates with 32 hexadecimal characters for the serial number.
This is not possible - you cannot have 32 ASCII characters in the serial number.
The most likely truth given that explanation is that you have 16 fully random bytes. Which would be 16 * 8 = 128 random bits, satisfying the entropy requirements.
3 fully random bytes would satisfy the 20-bit requirement.
6 fully random hexadecimal ASCII characters encoded in the serial number would satisfy the 20-bit requirement.
8 fully random bytes is required to satisfy the 64-bit requirement.
16 bytes with 4 bits of entropy each, which ASCII-encoded hexadecimal would be, would satisfy the entropy requirement and leave you 3.875 bytes left over for other information.
Le 15 avr. 2016 à 16:32, Ben Wilson <ben.wilson at digicert.com <mailto:ben.wilson at digicert.com> > a écrit :
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From: Man Ho (Certizen) [ <mailto:manho at certizen.com> mailto:manho at certizen.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 7:51 PM
To: Ben Wilson < <mailto:ben.wilson at digicert.com> ben.wilson at digicert.com>; Ryan Sleevi < <mailto:sleevi at google.com> sleevi at google.com>
Cc: <mailto:public at cabforum.org> public at cabforum.org
Subject: Re: [cabfpub] Pre-Ballot 164 - Certificate Serial Number Entropy
Ben,
We had already changed our system to issue SSL certificates with 20 hexadecimal characters of at least 20-bit of entropy since 2014. I'm just wondering why the requirement is changed from "bits of entropy" to "unpredictable bits", which I don't understand the conversion (like "cm" to "inch" :). I don't know whether our software vendor understands it.
Man
On 4/15/2016 4:24 AM, Ben Wilson wrote:
You’re right, given a randomly generated 20-byte serial number, you have 159 unpredictable bits.
From: Ryan Sleevi [ <mailto:sleevi at google.com> mailto:sleevi at google.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 2:03 PM
To: Ben Wilson <mailto:ben.wilson at digicert.com> <ben.wilson at digicert.com>
Cc: Man Ho (Certizen) <mailto:manho at certizen.com> <manho at certizen.com>; <mailto:public at cabforum.org> public at cabforum.org
Subject: Re: [cabfpub] Pre-Ballot 164 - Certificate Serial Number Entropy
Ben:
Are you sure your math is correct? A serial number is 20 bytes, with the high bit needing to be 1 (for the encoding of positive INTEGERS within DER). This leaves 159 bits for entropy. So you certainly can't have more unpredictable bits than that :)
On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Ben Wilson < <mailto:ben.wilson at digicert.com> ben.wilson at digicert.com> wrote:
Man,
Have you had a chance to do further research on the capabilities of your system? Our CA issues certificates with 32 hexadecimal characters for the serial number. There are 4 bits of entropy for each hexadecimal character. Therefore, our serial numbers have 128 bits of entropy and 16*32= 512 unpredictable bits. An 8-hexadecimal character serial number would have 32 bits of entropy and 128 unpredictable bits. A 20-bit entropy would be equal to 5 hexadecimal characters, or 80 unpredictable bits, so this seems like this is a downgrade to go to 64 unpredictable bits. Am I right?
Ben
From: Man Ho (Certizen) [mailto: <mailto:manho at certizen.com> manho at certizen.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 12:27 AM
To: Ben Wilson < <mailto:ben.wilson at digicert.com> ben.wilson at digicert.com>; <mailto:public at cabforum.org> public at cabforum.org
Subject: Re: [cabfpub] Pre-Ballot 164 - Certificate Serial Number Entropy
Hi all,
Is the meaning of "at least 64 unpredictable bits" setting the same or a higher requirement than "at least 20 bits of entropy" ? I'm not quite sure whether our certificate generation software has this setting in itself.
Cheers
Man
On 3/1/2016 12:21 AM, Ben Wilson wrote:
REPLACE
"CAs SHOULD generate non-sequential Certificate serial numbers that exhibit at least 20 bits of entropy"
WITH
"Effective April 1, 2016, CAs SHALL use a Certificate serialNumber greater than zero (0) that contains at least 64 unpredictable bits."
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