<div dir="ltr">I don't think you'll find the apples:apples comparison here, because the IP encumbrances are going to vary holistically based on the process and participatory model, the stages for exclusions, the means in which those changes are ratified, and the overall goals for the relative documents - not to mention whether or not the obligation is to the SDO or to other members.<div></div><div><br></div><div>Suffice to say, any changes on IP obligations - whether it is, in the case of CA/Browser Forum, the participation in (and the establishment of) a WG, or something like IETF, where it is making Contributions relative to a given document, or the W3C, joining a WG - undergo profound and significant scrutiny and evaluation. Different organizations deal with these safeguards in different ways - for example, lawyers reviewing every contribution to the IETF (if they even permit them) - or things such as structured document checkpoints and calls for exclusions.</div><div><br></div><div>The ability of the Forum to function today as productively as it does - despite its glacial pace - is in many ways a testament to the strength of both the policies and, historically speaking, the scope, of the Forum. The advantages of the existing positive acknowledgement far outweigh the perceived costs - which appears to be, based on this thread, one of IP policies being special compared to other votes, as well as the organizational hassle of cat-herding. For members, however, the costs to change to an ongoing obligation by no means reduces the amount of legal review necessary, and merely adds to the risk that any organizational process failure can expose substantial IP risk. That exposure to risk dilutes the value of the Forum, and of participating, and that's why it's not worth even contemplating the change.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 7:25 PM Kirk Hall via Govreform <<a href="mailto:govreform@cabforum.org">govreform@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Dimitris and others – do we know what existing groups like W3C, IETF, etc. do in this point? Do they allow an open and participatory process for making changes
to their IPR agreement, followed by automatic implementation (unless a member resigns)? Or do they require everyone in the organization to have to re-sign the new agreement by positive act?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Govreform [mailto:<a href="mailto:govreform-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">govreform-bounces@cabforum.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dimitris via Govreform<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 4, 2018 2:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Virginia Fournier <<a href="mailto:vfournier@apple.com" target="_blank">vfournier@apple.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> CA/Browser Forum Governance WG List <<a href="mailto:govreform@cabforum.org" target="_blank">govreform@cabforum.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL]Re: [cabf_governance] Ballot 206 and Official Version of the Bylaws<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">IPR policy changes by ballot, following the rules set forth in the Bylaws. It is not "a couple of people making changes". Once the ballot is approved, members have 90 days to sign the updated IPR. Until today,
no member has objected to signing the updated IPR. <br>
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It seems you misunderstood my intention and proposal which was aimed to produce the same result but with less administrative overhead. That is, members would still have 90 days to review and oppose to it.
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Best Regards, <br>
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Dimitris. <br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Virginia Fournier <<a href="mailto:vfournier@apple.com" target="_blank">vfournier@apple.com</a>><br>
To: Dimitris Zacharopoulos <<a href="mailto:jimmy@it.auth.gr" target="_blank">jimmy@it.auth.gr</a>><br>
Cc: Ben Wilson <<a href="mailto:ben.wilson@digicert.com" target="_blank">ben.wilson@digicert.com</a>>, CA/Browser Forum Governance WG List <<a href="mailto:govreform@cabforum.org" target="_blank">govreform@cabforum.org</a>><br>
Sent: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 0:38<br>
Subject: Re: [cabf_governance] Ballot 206 and Official Version of the Bylaws<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I don’t know where this “automatic encumbrance” notion came from, but I don’t remember anyone formally proposing it, or the Forum voting on it. Apple certainly would NOT have approved it. The reason re-signing the IPR Agreement when
it is modified is to make sure everyone agrees with the changes, and we don’t have a couple of people make changes to the IPR policy that are unacceptable to the majority, but accepted by “default."<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Virginia Fournier<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Senior Standards Counsel<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#717171"></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> Apple Inc.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif;color:black">☏</span><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">669-227-9595<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif;color:black">✉</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">︎</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> <a href="mailto:vmf@apple.com" target="_blank">vmf@apple.com</a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#0433ff"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sep 4, 2018, at 5:14 AM, Dimitris Zacharopoulos <<a href="mailto:jimmy@it.auth.gr" target="_blank">jimmy@it.auth.gr</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
<span style="background:white">I just happened to review some legal documents related to Subscriber Agreements and while I was reading section 5.5 about IPR policies and the need to re-sign in case of amendments, I believe there must be a better way to handle
modifications than the current practice.</span><br>
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<span style="background:white">Here is a sample language that could be incorporated in section 5.5 of the Bylaws or in a new section.</span><br>
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<span style="background:white">--- BEGIN ---</span><br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
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<h3 style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Modifications to IPR Policy<u></u><u></u></span></h3>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;background:white">The Forum may revise the IPR Policy from time to time. Any such change shall be notified to the Members, Associate Members and Interested Parties by any
convenient way and in any case, shall be binding and effective<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color:#cc6600">fourteen (14) days</span><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span>after publication of the changes in the IPR Policy, or
upon notification to the Members, Associate Members and Interested Parties by e-mail. If the Members, Associate Members and Interested Parties do not raise concerns or oppose to the provisions of the updated IPR Policy within<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color:#cc6600">fourteen
(14) days</span><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span>after publication of the new IPR Policy, the Forum will treat such use by the Member, Associate Member or Interested Party as acceptance of the updated IPR Policy.<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
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<span style="background:white">If a Member raises concerns or opposes to the provisions of the new IPR Policy within the<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color:#cc6600">fourteen (14) days<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span></span>period,
then the Member’s Forum membership shall default to an Associate Membership until the new IPR agreement is explicitly signed and returned by the Member.<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br>
<br>
<span style="background:white">If an Associate Member or Interested Party raises concerns or opposes to the provisions of the new IPR Policy within the<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color:#cc6600">fourteen (14) days<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span></span>period,
then its participation in Forum calls, meetings, activities, and events shall be suspended until the agreement is explicitly signed and returned.</span><br>
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<span style="background:white">--- END ---</span><br>
<br>
<span style="background:white">Some of this language could be made more explicit, for example the form of notification to Members, Associate Members and Interested Parties. Would an e-mail to the management list suffice? Perhaps a personal e-mail from the Forum
Chair to each participant would be a better solution.</span><br>
<br>
<span style="background:white">The current Bylaws have a 90-day window for Participants to sign and return the update IPR Policies. If this is the agreed "reasonable" time to review amendments to an existing document, then we should change the 14 days to 90.</span><br>
<br>
<span style="background:white">Of course, the language needs to be reviewed and tweaked by legal folks but we should be able to come up with the proper words to avoid the re-signing part. Of course each Member will still have time to review and raise concerns
or objections to any updates.</span><br>
<br>
<span style="background:white">Thoughts?</span><br>
<span style="background:white">Dimitris.</span><br>
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<br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On 4/9/2018 7:39 πμ, Ben Wilson via Govreform wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Here is the redlined differences between the attachment to Ballot 206 and the 4APR18 version on the website.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Govreform<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:govreform-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple"><govreform-bounces@cabforum.org></span></a><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Ben Wilson via Govreform<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, September 3, 2018 4:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span>CA/Browser Forum Governance WG List<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:govreform@cabforum.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple"><govreform@cabforum.org></span></a>; Virginia Fournier<a href="mailto:vfournier@apple.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple"><vfournier@apple.com></span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [cabf_governance] Ballot 206 and Official Version of the Bylaws<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I'm away from my laptop until later tonight. I'll send it then.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:vfournier@apple.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">vfournier@apple.com</span></a><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:vfournier@apple.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">vfournier@apple.com</span></a>>
on behalf of Virginia Fournier <<a href="mailto:vfournier@apple.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">vfournier@apple.com</span></a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, September 3, 2018 12:04:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span>Ben Wilson; CA/Browser Forum Governance WG List<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [cabf_governance] Ballot 206 and Official Version of the Bylaws<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hi Ben,<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I’d like to see what those changes are before making a choice. I remember having to create a version 1.8 of the Bylaws before I could create a version
1.9, so I’m not sure what would be missing. Thanks.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Best regards,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Virginia Fournier</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Senior Standards Counsel</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#717171"></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> Apple Inc.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">☏</span><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">669-227-9595</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">✉</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">︎</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:vmf@apple.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">vmf@apple.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">On Sep 1, 2018, at 7:56 PM, Ben Wilson via Govreform <<a href="mailto:govreform@cabforum.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">govreform@cabforum.org</span></a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Gov Reform WG,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Today I was going through the Bylaws on GitHub to update them from version 1.7 to version 1.9 (to match changes by Ballot 216 (v.1.8) and Ballot 206
(v.1.9). As Wayne mentioned during the Validation WG call, Ballot 206 inadvertently removed some changes made by Ballot 216. We’ll have to figure out how to remedy this, but most likely with a ballot.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Also during this process, I think I noticed discrepancies between what was on GitHub and what we have on the website. For instance, the version on
the website uses the term “CWG” but the one on GitHub uses “Working Group”. Also, I think that some of the changes made in section 2.3(c), 2.4(b) and 2.4(c) by Ballot 216 are preserved in the GitHub version, but removed in the website version.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I’ve reviewed the different versions of the Bylaws v. 20Feb2018, v. 20MAR18, and 4APR18, and it appears that the changes happened in between the 20-Feb
version and the 4-Apr version. <span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Here are some solutions to the inconsistencies:<span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">1 - just update GitHub with the April 4<sup>th</sup><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span>version, which we’ve all been using and which is the
one on the Website.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">2 - use the current GitHub version (which is based on the March 20 version), and revert the CABF Website version 1.9 to what was in the March 20<sup>th</sup><span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span>version
(and then have a ballot that bring is up to the April 4 version).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Under either approach, there are other changes that we’d need to do to fix some of the missing Ballot 216 language and re-insert it. And there are
a few other changes we could make with a ballot, like a few cross references that need to be fixed and a replacement of the ETSI audit reference with “ETSI EN 319 401”. <span class="m_-5684282156333543690apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Thoughts?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Ben<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Govreform mailing list<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:Govreform@cabforum.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#954f72">Govreform@cabforum.org</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/govreform" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#954f72">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/govreform</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre style="background:white">_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style="background:white">Govreform mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><a href="mailto:Govreform@cabforum.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">Govreform@cabforum.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><a href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/govreform" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/govreform</span></a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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_______________________________________________<br>
Govreform mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Govreform@cabforum.org" target="_blank">Govreform@cabforum.org</a><br>
<a href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/govreform" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/govreform</a><br>
</blockquote></div>