<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span style="-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;" class="">Hi Ryan,</span><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ok, thanks - this is very helpful.<br class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: normal;"><div style="margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;" class=""><div style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class="">Best regards,</div><div style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; min-height: 17px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class="">Virginia Fournier</div><div style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class="">Senior Standards Counsel</div><div style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(113, 113, 113);" class=""></span> Apple Inc.</div><div style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=""><span style="font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Apple SD Gothic Neo";" class="">☏</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>669-227-9595</div><div style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; color: rgb(4, 51, 255);" class=""><span style="font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Zapf Dingbats"; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="">✉︎</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=""> <a href="mailto:vmf@apple.com" class="">vmf@apple.com</a></span></div><div style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; color: rgb(87, 157, 255); min-height: 17px;" class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div><br class=""><div class="">On Jun 14, 2018, at 12:00 PM, Ryan Sleevi <<a href="mailto:sleevi@google.com" class="">sleevi@google.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Virginia,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My suggestion during the F2F was:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">These are good questions, it's unlikely we're going to reach a conclusion in the room today, especially when the experts from a number of organizations do not participate in the plenary F2F, folks should discuss with their counsel the possible interpretations, and bring those concerns to the Governance WG for further discussion and resolution.<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My objection for the item being added to today's call was that this agenda item was sent out to the management list only, after the final agenda had been sent to the public@ list, with extremely short-notice, no new information from the F2F discussion, and no write-up of that discussion that could lead to a successful resolution. These concerns were raised on the management@ list, where Kirk proposed modifying the agenda prior to our call today, as they are at odds with Section 5.2 of our Bylaws, but also too short notice to prepare for meaningful discussions. This exact same 'last minute' addition happened during our F2F, in which these same questions were added to the agenda the morning of the discussion, not because any member raised them (at least, from all publicly available information), but simply because there were slots in the agenda to fill. This reasoning is exactly why I stated during the F2F when this agenda was bashed on that it would be more helpful if it was held with the Governance Reform WG or on the next WG call, rather then the plenary, so that we could ensure that the right representatives from organizations, including Apple, could be present and participate.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thus, the objection was the process and manner in which it was added to the call and that it continues to be added as a 'last minute' thing with no write-up or statement of the problem(s). We're certainly in strong favor of helping bring clarity about expectations, especially if the Chair has concerns, but we're not sure that continuing to have this conversation in the abstract, without a statement of the problems, is going to help us move closer to finding solutions. It is a procedural objection, especially when there had been agreement that discussing with the Governance Reform WG was a meaningful and actionable next step.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I'm extremely appreciative of Ben summarizing the set of questions that have been raised regarding such participation, and I'm hoping with the additional context, there can be clearer understanding about the information that prospective members, associate members, and interested parties should be providing, to minimize risk for all members. This is especially important when we have Associate Members proposing modifications that would introduce new Essential Claims.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 2:19 PM, Virginia Fournier <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:vfournier@apple.com" target="_blank" class="">vfournier@apple.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=""><span class="">Hi Ryan,</span><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Would you please also summarize the ETSI issue you raised on the call today? I’m not sure whether you were objecting to the discussion of the issue on today’s call, the MOU previously signed with ETSI, not discussing the issue directly with ETSI, having ETSI sign the IPR agreement, or something else. Is it just what you’ve mentioned below? I’d appreciate your summary so the Governance Reform WG can determine how to address it. Thank you. <div class=""><div dir="auto" style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: normal;" class=""><div style="margin:0px;font-size:14px;line-height:normal" class=""><div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal" class="">Best regards,</div><div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;min-height:17px" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal" class="">Virginia Fournier</div><div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal" class="">Senior Standards Counsel</div><div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal" class=""><span style="color:rgb(113,113,113)" class=""></span> Apple Inc.</div><div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal" class=""><span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Apple SD Gothic Neo"" class="">☏</span><span class="m_245357864479131072Apple-converted-space"> </span>669-227-9595</div><div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;color:rgb(4,51,255)" class=""><span style="font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Zapf Dingbats";" class="">✉︎</span><span style="" class=""> <a href="mailto:vmf@apple.com" target="_blank" class="">vmf@apple.com</a></span></div><div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;color:rgb(87,157,255);min-height:17px" class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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<div class=""><div class=""><div class="h5"><br class=""><div class="">On Jun 14, 2018, at 9:11 AM, Ryan Sleevi via Govreform <<a href="mailto:govreform@cabforum.org" target="_blank" class="">govreform@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_245357864479131072Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class="h5"><div dir="ltr" class="">(I'm not sure if I have posting rights on govreform, so this may only go to the named parties)<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks for this summary Ben. To capture the other part of the F2F discussion and this and the previous call, it sounds like there's two separate-but-highly-related challenges.<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">First is confusion about who must sign the IPR, whether participating as an Interested Party, an Associate Member, or a full Forum member. Examples of this confusion have manifest in several discussions, in which some members expressed confusion as to how to best handle it, such as:</div><div class="">- For interested parties, whether an individual signature is sufficient or whether that individuals employer(s) must also sign</div><div class="">- For associate members, the process for waiving the IPR agreement, as covered in Section 3.1 of the Bylaws</div><div class="">- For associate members, how to handle various industry groups, such as:</div><div class=""> - CPA Canada's WebTrust TF, which is comprised of volunteers from firms such as KPMG, Deloitte, and BDO, but also has representatives from CPA Canada itself</div><div class=""> - ACAB-c, which has a number of European conformance assessment bodies (auditors) and European CAs (which themselves may be members of the Forum)</div><div class=""> - ETSI, which is comprised of Member Organizations that may meet any of our other definitions, and which may have individuals that are employed by ETSI member organizations, but are not representing their Member Organization</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Second, there is confusion about the nature and scope of participation in CA/Browser Forum calls and F2Fs. This confusion roughly follows the examples illustrated above, but to more firmly document.</div><div class=""> - WebTrust is administered by CPA Canada, and thus we'd expect CPA Canada employees and consultants to be able to participate (e.g. Don Sheehy, Gord Beal). However, the Task Force is made up of volunteers from auditing firms, and whether or not the recognition of AM also extends to those members and their employees. Jeff Ward, as Chair of the TF, while employed by BDO, has been a steady participant in Forum F2F, but whether this invitation extends to the entire TF, or their member organizations, was a point of confusion.</div><div class=""> - ACAB-c is an organization made up of many European TSPs and CABs. Does recognition of ACAB-c as an Associate Member extend invitations to all of these organizations, and their employees, to also participate in the F2F</div><div class=""> - ETSI, as a member organization, is made up of a large number of members. Does invitation only extend to those employeed directly by ETSI, or does it also include those who participate in or lead the various focus groups within ETSI?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Note that there was a separate discussion on that second point related to Members (such as whether any employee of an organization can be in charge of voting or participate in Forum F2F, or whether there should be a notion of designated representatives), but that's not nearly as urgent or pressing as these above matters are.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My hope is that through discussion in the Governance Reform WG and telecons, there can be a mutually agreed upon and documented understanding as to:</div><div class="">- A common understanding of the 'complex' cases (the above may be woefully insufficient)</div><div class="">- Who signs the IPR Agreements for these complex cases</div><div class="">- What concerns, if any, exist with those guidelines by the member organizations (e.g. concerns of Proviti / US Government, or of ETSI and its members)</div><div class="">- Agreement on the process and procedures for any exceptions that might be granted under the Bylaws Section 3.1, such as:</div><div class=""> - The chair decides</div><div class=""> - Assent on a meeting (F2F or telecon), the same as done for members that meet the requirements</div><div class=""> - Full Forum votes</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Hopefully that accurately and appropriately captures the discussions to date, in order to frame possible work items.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Ben Wilson <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:ben.wilson@digicert.com" target="_blank" class="">ben.wilson@digicert.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72" class=""><div class="m_245357864479131072m_912791612569078699WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">Group,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">An issue from the London face-to-face meeting resurfaced today on the CABF call. That is, who must sign the IPR agreement? I believe that many members of the CABF would like a recommendation from this working group.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">I think it has been pretty clear, at least in practice, that someone with authority for an organization that is a member must sign the IPR agreement. For Interested Parties who are individuals, their signature on the IPR Agreement is pretty straightforward. But things get a little fuzzy when we deal with other scenarios. The most unclear situation is when we are dealing with associations of other organizations and individuals – viz. ETSI and WebTrust who send representatives to our meetings. Another example is where an entity appoints another entity as its agent (recognized representative) for discussions/votes. For this latter situation, a side issue is what should we require as evidence of the agency relationship.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<span class="m_245357864479131072HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></font></span></p><span class="m_245357864479131072HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Ben<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></font></span></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></div>
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