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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>These are good points Moudrick and I’ll leave it to Arno/Inigo to respond.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><br>Dean<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'> Govreform [mailto:govreform-bounces@cabforum.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Moudrick M. Dadashov via Govreform<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 18, 2016 5:31 AM<br><b>To:</b> CA/Browser Forum Governance WG List <govreform@cabforum.org><br><b>Cc:</b> Moudrick M. Dadashov <md@ssc.lt><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabf_governance] CABF as a formal organization<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p>Please, if I may, a couple more questions:<o:p></o:p></p><p>1) Why in some cases <b>CA Browser Forum</b> has been recognized by ETSI a "real entity" (e.g. see ETSI EN 319 412-4 V1.1.1 (2016-02) <i>Electronic Signatures and Infrastructures (ESI); Certificate Profiles; Part 4: Certificate profile for web site certificates</i>):<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>(a) "<i>The present document aims to maximize the interoperability of systems issuing and using certificates both in the European context under the Regulation (EU) No 910/2014 [i.3] and in the wider international environment, also by meeting requirements from <b>CA Browser Forum</b>.</i>";<br><br>(b) <i>The following referenced documents <b><u>are necessary</u></b> for the application of the present document.<br> [2] CA/Browser Forum: "Baseline Requirements for the Issuance and Management of Publicly-Trusted Certificates".<br> [3] CA/Browser Forum: "Guidelines for The Issuance and Management of Extended Validation Certificates".<br></i><br>whereas for a "formal partnership" the recognition above doesn't apply?<br><br>2) Wouldn't it be appropriate for ETSI (with the assistance of Commission?) to take internal arrangements to recognize the forum a "formal partner"? <br><br>Thanks,<br>M.D.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 11/17/2016 9:53 PM, Virginia Fournier via Govreform wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Hi - some additional things to think about: <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>1. Do the benefits of a “formal partnership" with ETSI outweigh the risks Kirk has outlined below? What are those benefits from a CAB Forum standpoint? What would CAB Forum get that they aren’t already getting?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2. How would CAB Forum’s IPR Policy need to change to be “compatible” with ETSI’s policy? ETSI’s IPR policy is quite a bit different from the CAB Forum’s policy. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><a href="http://www.etsi.org/images/files/ipr/etsi-ipr-policy.pdf">http://www.etsi.org/images/files/ipr/etsi-ipr-policy.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>3. Is CAB Forum prepared to charge fees for participation and to have a governing board who’s responsible for all of the overhead, budget, corporate responsibilities, legal matters, etc.?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><br><br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Virginia Fournier<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Senior Standards Counsel<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Myriad Set Pro",serif;color:#5E5E5E'></span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> Apple Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif'>☏</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> 669-227-9595<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif'>✉</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>︎ <a href="mailto:vmf@apple.com">vmf@apple.com</a></span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#4787FF'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Nov 16, 2016, at 9:23 PM, Kirk Hall via Govreform <<a href="mailto:govreform@cabforum.org">govreform@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thanks, Dean. I don’t feel strongly about this, but I have been through this before with another organization. </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>People say “we need to be a real entity” so they decide to incorporate. What form – if a non-profit corporation, then you have to meet certain government criteria, and maybe file with the IRS to gain non-profit status. <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Where? Someone’s home state or province? Delaware? Who will be the registered contact people? Then you have to figure out how to pay the annual filing fees and fees for a registered agent. Oh, yeah – you need articles of incorporation, officers, etc. And you probably have to file an annual tax return, state and federal. And then after a couple of years, everyone forgets and someone who is no longer active is still listed as President or Secretary. And maybe the corporation gets dissolved for non-compliance.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Then there is the issue of being sued – in one sense, no big deal if the corporation has no assets, just don’t respond to the lawsuit (of course, a lawyer needs to look at this and advise the corporation - $$), the person suing (to stop something, or for damages) gets a default judgment, and the CABF as a corporation is dissolved. Then what?</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>On the other hand, if the CABF becomes a corporation, we can get an EV cert at last! <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>Govreform [<a href="mailto:govreform-bounces@cabforum.org">mailto:govreform-bounces@cabforum.org</a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Dean Coclin via Govreform<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Wednesday, November 16, 2016 8:22 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:Govreform@cabforum.org">Govreform@cabforum.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Dean Coclin <a href="mailto:Dean_Coclin@symantec.com"><Dean_Coclin@symantec.com></a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>[cabf_governance] FW: CABF as a formal organization</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>As discussed on the last call, there was interest in having the forum become a formal organization. Below is the reason from ETSI, for discussion on the next call.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Dean</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext'>Sonia Compans<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:18 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Dean Coclin<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br><b>Cc:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:arno.fiedler@outlook.com"><span style='color:#954F72'>arno.fiedler@outlook.com</span></a>; Xavier Piednoir<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>RE: CABF as a formal organization</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Hi Dean,</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>This was even faster than I expected as I could get the feedback from our External Relations officer quickly (Xavier Piednoir, here in copy).</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Let me explain the potential benefits of CAB Forum becoming a legal entity, at least from the ETSI viewpoint.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>For several years now, ETSI and CAB Forum have had some kind of collaboration for policies for website certificates resulting in ETSI standards building on CAB Forum specifications and ETSI scheme being recognized by CAB Forum. As CAB Forum has so far not been a legal entity, ETSI and CAB Forum signed a Letter of Intent (in 2009) which only allows exchanging informational material and no having technical collaboration. So far the collaboration has in fact taken place thanks to common members, i.e. Izenpe.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>If CAB Forum becomes a legal entity, ETSI and CAB Forum could set up a formal partnership and sign a Memorandum of Understanding or a cooperation agreement.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>An MoU would allow formal technical collaboration with nomination of CAB Forum observers in ETSI TC ESI and vice-versa, with exchange of working documents and drafts, technical discussions, joint promotion through e.g. workshops, literature.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>A cooperation agreement allows all what is possible with an MoU plus creating joint specifications, incorporation of text from the other party, adoption of publicly available specifications in to ETSI Technical Specifications or Technical Reports. This level requires the compatibility of the Partner’s IPR Policy with ETSI’s.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I hope this helps and we would be interested in knowing the outcome of CABF discussions.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Best regards</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'>Sonia Compans</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:red'> </span></b></span><b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:red'> </span></b><b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>–</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span></span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Technical Officer</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'>ETSI</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'> </span></span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'>●<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#595959'><a href="http://www.etsi.org/">www.etsi.org</a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'>●</span><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span></span><u><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0563C1'><a href="mailto:sonia.compans@etsi.org"><span style='color:#954F72'>sonia.compans@etsi.org</span></a></span></u><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#595959'>Phone: +33 (0)4 92 94 43 36<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79'>●</span><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#2E74B5'> </span></span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#595959'>Mobile: +33 (0)6 67 15 58 49</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify'><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>This email may contain confidential information and is intended for the use of the addressee only. Any unauthorized use may be unlawful. If you receive this email by mistake, please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your email software. Thank you for your co-operation.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;background:white'>_______________________________________________</span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><br><span style='background:white'>Govreform mailing list</span><br><span style='background:white'><a href="mailto:Govreform@cabforum.org">Govreform@cabforum.org</a></span><br><span style='background:white'><a href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/govreform">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/govreform</a></span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Govreform mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:Govreform@cabforum.org">Govreform@cabforum.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/govreform">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/govreform</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>